Transcript of John L. Kirkwood, President & CEO of the American Lung Association on CNN's "Dolans Unscripted"

January 7, 2003

KEN DOLAN, CNNfn ANCHOR, DOLANS UNSCRIPTED: Welcome back to "DOLANS UNSCRIPTED," everybody. While there is one thing for sure, nobody - I don`t think anybody contends that smoking is healthy for you. So let`s get passed that, OK?

But there is a bone of contention on how states are upping prevention, tobacco prevention, keeping kids away, better instruction, better education on the hazards of smoking, number two, and number three, another fact that`s undisputed, that over $150 billion is spent on health care and lost productivity in America.

But how are we, as a country, coping with this?

DARIA DOLAN, CNNfn ANCHOR, DOLANS UNSCRIPTED: Well, joining us to talk all about the report card that, for the second year in a row, has been compiled on how the states are doing to stop people from or incenting them to stop smoking is the president and CEO of the American Lung Association, our guest, John Kirkwood.

John, thanks for joining us this morning.
JOHN KIRKWOOD, PRESIDENT & CEO, AMERICAN LUNG ASSOC.: Good morning.

KEN DOLAN: John, first question, if you don`t mind, and then we`ll get into the issues: What is the American Lung Association? I mean it seems fairly - it`s lungs and smoking.

KIRKWOOD: Right.

KEN DOLAN: What is your goal for the association?

KIRKWOOD: The American Lung Association`s goal is to reduce smoking to the maximum extent possible. Centers for Disease Control has established a goal in their Healthy People 2010 program to reduce smoking to 12 percent of the American population.

KEN DOLAN: Where`s it at? Where`s it at?

KIRKWOOD: It`s about 23 percent.

KEN DOLAN: So you`re trying - to half
[CROSS TALK]

DARIA DOLAN: Down from - what was it at its height?

KIRKWOOD: This year, 2004, is the 40th anniversary of the surgeon general`s report.

KEN DOLAN: Forty years.

KIRKWOOD: From 1964. At that time, smoking was about 46 percent of the population.

KEN DOLAN: Quite amazing.

KIRKWOOD: It`s 23 percent now, so there`s been a 50 percent reduction.

KEN DOLAN: You are looking for another one.

KIRKWOOD: We`re looking for another 50 percent.

KEN DOLAN: Your goal is to do it again.

KIRKWOOD: But not in 40 years. We`re looking to do it in the next couple of years.

KEN DOLAN: We may not be here, John.

DARIA DOLAN: All right, this is the second year of state report cards.

KIRKWOOD: Yes.

DARIA DOLAN: What`s the purpose behind this?

KIRKWOOD: Well, what we try to do is assess how each state is doing. We look at four criteria that relate to public policy issues: cigarette excise taxes, smoking, second-hand smoke, smoking in restaurants - in other words, clean indoor air - youth access and whether the states are spending at the recommended levels for the Centers for Disease Control. And then we rate each state and each area, A, B, C and D.

KEN DOLAN: Thirty-eight states failed?

KIRKWOOD: That`s correct.

KEN DOLAN: Nice work.

KIRKWOOD: Well, the problem we have - there`s been progress made on excise taxes. Many of the states, though, are not spending anywhere near the recommended levels for education and cessation.

KEN DOLAN: Gotcha.

KIRKWOOD: These were supplemental funds that came to the states as a result of.

KEN DOLAN: I was going to ask you about that one.

KIRKWOOD: .court action at that time. They said we`re going to use a lot of this money for cessation and education activities, but because of budget constraints and economic problems and so forth, a lot of that has shifted.

KEN DOLAN: But that`s wrong. John, that`s wrong, and I`m not taking the - I`m not taking the American Lung Association.

DARIA DOLAN: Well, I think the way the money was doled out after the settlement probably was not written terribly clearly.

KIRKWOOD: Well, it.

DARIA DOLAN: I mean shouldn`t that have been the only use?

KIRKWOOD: Well, at that time - well, it wasn`t earmark, but at that time, legislators said this is what we`re going to use the money for. But it`s short-sighted public policy because if you don`t spend the money now, you`re just going to spend it later.

KEN DOLAN: Yes.

KIRKWOOD: There`s several billion dollars, over $75 million just in health care costs that are being absorbed as a result of --

[CROSS TALK].

KEN DOLAN: See, it`s a empty (ph) victory in my opinion, John Kirkwood, and that is simply this. If I take the tobacco - I`m a state, my home state Massachusetts. If I take the tobacco money and don`t use it for what it was meant to be used for and do something, fix a bridge, build a school, which I suppose is OK, I`m actually hurting my state and maybe hurting my country, because my health care, somewhere in the next generation or two.

KIRKWOOD: Right.

KEN DOLAN: .is going to be spiraling so far out of control that I might have been better off fixing it or fixing it better now.

KIRKWOOD: Exactly. You should put the money in now because you will save money in the long run. But unfortunately, a lot of public policy is built around, what do I need to do for the next election.

KEN DOLAN: Especially [CROSS TALK].

KIRKWOOD: So it [CROSS TALK].

KEN DOLAN: Yes, I guess you`re right.

DARIA DOLAN: Let`s come back to the excise taxes.

KIRKWOOD: Yes.

DARIA DOLAN: Because here in New York, we have, as I understand it, the most expensive cigarettes in the country, because we`ve raised this excise tax to a prohibitive amount.

KIRKWOOD: It`s between the state.

KEN DOLAN: New York`s done well in the rating, though.

DARIA DOLAN: All right, but let me get to my point, first. I saw something about two weeks ago on a New York City street, outside a building as I waited for Ken, where I thought a drug deal was going down, and it was some guy offering to sell a cheap pack of smokes, individual cigarettes. It wasn`t even a whole pack.

So we now have created a phenomenon, very similar to what prohibition created in the alcohol industry, bootlegged cigarettes and people going overseas on the internet and buying from Switzerland, as one dear person on this staff does.

KEN DOLAN: Who did that?

DARIA DOLAN: So we - it doesn`t work.

KIRKWOOD: The fact of the matter is that we do have a bootlegging problem in New York. You can buy cigarettes in other states or on the internet. They lower taxes, resell them in New York, but it`s illegal.

KEN DOLAN: Yes.

KIRKWOOD: .and people should be arrested and fined and punished.

DARIA DOLAN: But let`s not even go the bootleg route, just the individuals. That was at least - well, if they are going to smoke them and get sick and charge this state money to take care of their health care, then we`re going to make them pay through the nose for it. But they are buying them from other states, so the excise tax revenue has fallen.

KIRKWOOD: Well, there is some of that that is going on, and we`ve seen that in other states where there is a tax differential between the two states, and there will be some of that overtime. But in the long run, the taxes in New York - there`s $1.50 in the city, in addition to $1.50 in the state, which is $3, highest in the country.

KEN DOLAN: But why should there be - I`m a nonsmoker and I`ve never been. I have nothing against smoking. You smoke or you don`t smoke.

Why should $1.50 be charged to somebody to smoke? Why don`t we charge $1.50 excise tax on a Big Mac? And I`m not trying to be a fool about it.

KIRKWOOD: Yes.

KEN DOLAN: If, in fact, I`m going to become obese and I`m a member of the health care plan, you`re going to have to take care of my fat butt, then why shouldn`t you put $2 in a Big Mac instead of putting a buck - or including putting a buck in a pack of cigarettes? And if you`re doing that, then let`s put $1.50 on a can of peanut butter, because if you eat too much peanut butter, you`re going to - I`m being theatric, but you.

KIRKWOOD: I understand. I want to stay with the cigarette issue, though, because what`s happening is, from a macroeconomic standpoint, we`re all paying for this.

Only 23 percent of the population smokes, but you pay for your health insurance here at CNN. I pay for my health insurance.

KEN DOLAN: Well said, well said, yes.

KIRKWOOD: And I`m paying more than I was 10 years ago.

KEN DOLAN: And you`ll pay more 10 years from now.

KIRKWOOD: And part of what I`m having to pay is to take care of people.

DARIA DOLAN: Part, though, that`s not all smoking related.

KIRKWOOD: No, no, no, but it`s part of it.

KEN DOLAN: No, he means - part of.

KIRKWOOD: If you want to take it to the obesity issue and everything else, all of this kind of behavior costs each of us individually, through higher health costs, higher health insurance or whatever. And what we need to do is address it, and that`s why I wanted to stay with the tobacco industry.

KEN DOLAN: Well said, well said.

KIRKWOOD: We`re going to address the tobacco issue, try to reduce that, and we`ll leave obesity and other folks.

KEN DOLAN: I didn`t mean to detract - OK.

KIRKWOOD: .to other things. Particularly with New Years now and resolutions, maybe people can take some weight off too.

DARIA DOLAN: John, before we run out of time here.

KEN DOLAN: Half a minute.

KIRKWOOD: Sure.

DARIA DOLAN: I want to unveil the five worst and the five best states, regarding how they handle the smoking issue.

KIRKWOOD: It`s hard to categorize one state as best or worst because we look across four different criteria.

DARIA DOLAN: OK.

KIRKWOOD: So, just for example, if we looked at taxes, New York, New Jersey are at the top of the list.

DARIA DOLAN: Yes.

KIRKWOOD: It`s $2.05 in New Jersey.

KEN DOLAN: Yes, yes.

KIRKWOOD: Looking at taxes, Virginia is the worst at 2.5 cents. If we look at clean indoor air laws, California is one of the best, Maine is one of the best.

KEN DOLAN: So it`s pieces and pieces.

KIRKWOOD: Kentucky is one of the worst, so it varies state-by-state.

KEN DOLAN: But New York did pretty well, did it not, on the overall?

KIRKWOOD: Yes, they did overall. And if people want to look at their own states, they can go to our website at www.LungUSA.org and they can look up the data for their state.

DARIA DOLAN: Fabulous. Thank you so much, John Kirkwood.

KEN DOLAN: Good luck, John, and happy New Year.

KIRKWOOD: Happy New Year to you, too.

KEN DOLAN: Good guy. Thank you, John.

end of transcript.